I first connected with Chelsey Brooke Cole on LinkedIn and was immediately drawn to her powerful posts shedding light on narcissistic abuse. She’s a psychotherapist and bestselling author specializing in narcissistic abuse and complex trauma. She wrote and published the book If Only I’d Known: How to Outsmart Narcissists, Set Guilt-Free Boundaries, and Create Unshakeable Self-Worth.
Chelsey and I share deeply interconnected missions centered on mental health. I’m an author and professional speaker focused on reducing the suicide rate and breaking the taboo around mental health, and in the summer of 2025 we had a fantastic phone call that led directly to this conversation.
In this interview, we dive deep into Chelsey’s story, how to deal with narcissists, the prevalence of narcissism in our society, and the profound steps involved in the healing journey. I hope you get as much out of it as I did.
Please note: This conversation is for educational and awareness purposes only and is not a substitute for professional mental health care.
Chelsey’s Story: Growing Up with Narcissistic Abuse
“Chelsey, thank you so much for being with us here today,” I said. “I’m really excited to talk to you today.”
“Yes, very happy to be here,” Chelsey said. “Thank you for having me.”
“My first question in mind,” I said, “is regarding your story. I’ve been able to listen to some of your content and I’ve noticed you have a really powerful story, dealing with narcissistic abuse yourself. I’m curious for you to walk us through what you experienced growing up.”
“Sure,” Chelsey said. “When people ask me that question, I often say I feel like I’ve been preparing to specialize in narcissistic abuse my whole life. I just didn’t have the term for it. And that’s true for a lot of people. We’re dealing with narcissists, but we don’t know what to call it.
“So, I’ll give a bit of an overview. I’ve always been really interested in understanding why people do what they do. From a very young age, I was one of those kids reading self-help and personal development books. I think part of that came from my Myers-Briggs personality type, INFJ. I’ve always been interested in meaning, purpose, motivations, and understanding why people behave the way they do.
“Some of that was just my natural interest, but I also think I was trying to make sense of what was happening in my household without having language for it. I didn’t know that I was dealing with a narcissistic parent.
“On the one hand, I had a very loving, empathetic, compassionate mom who was involved and supportive. We had conversations about understanding people and their behavior, always with the goal of creating more connection and more meaningful relationships. I had that side.
“On the other hand, I had a very emotionally absent, neglectful, narcissistic father. There was always tension in the home. The tension would build, then there would be an incident, an argument, a betrayal, something would happen. Promises would be made that things were going to change. Sometimes they did, briefly. Then the tension would build again. There would be another betrayal, more promises, and those promises would be broken.
“Growing up, I became very used to that hot-and-cold dynamic. Things would get better for a short time and then fall apart again. As a kid, you hold onto hope that things will change, that things will be different. I remember thinking maybe someday I could have the kind of relationship with my dad that I saw other people have. But that never happened.
“He was much more interested in control than connection. Criticism was constant, and I grew up feeling like I was never enough. That mindset carried into adulthood and into my first dating relationships. I also became an overachiever early on, which is very common for people raised by narcissistic parents. I started college at sixteen, finished my master’s by twenty-two, and I’ve been working as a full-time therapist ever since.
“Underneath all of that, there was this constant, gnawing feeling, something I know many survivors experience, of not being enough. There was a sense that something was wrong with me, that I was fundamentally flawed. After all, who has a parent who doesn’t love them or treat them well?
“So often, we take that shame on ourselves, when in reality it belongs to the narcissistic parent. We don’t realize that until much later in life. That was the mindset I carried into my adult relationships. I had two particularly narcissistic romantic relationships. I’ve dealt with narcissists in different spaces, but two stand out, one with a grandiose narcissist and one with a vulnerable narcissist. Both had dark triad traits.
“The first was with a grandiose narcissist. That type tends to be charming, charismatic, extroverted, over-the-top, and very affectionate. When that relationship ended, I didn’t fully understand what I had experienced. I just thought, ‘OK, I was with a jerk. I know I don’t want that again.’ I didn’t know I had been with a narcissist. I didn’t know what narcissistic abuse was. I didn’t know what a trauma bond was. I just knew I wanted something completely different.
“And I definitely got something different, because I ended up with a vulnerable narcissist. That type often seems really nice, sweet, and unassuming. They can even appear harmless. You feel pulled to help them and support them. You often feel sorry for them. Your guard is down because they don’t look narcissistic at all. The grandiosity doesn’t show up in the same way.
“So, I ended up in that relationship as well. After it ended, I finally had to stop and ask myself, ‘What is going on here?’ There was clearly a pattern. How do I keep ending up in these relationships? How do I explain these behaviors? Because despite all my therapy training, all the books I’d read, and all the communication strategies I knew, nothing worked.
“All the typical advice, like telling them how you feel, giving them another chance, assuming they’re immature, or blaming their childhood, didn’t make my relationships better. It didn’t help my clients either. In fact, it made things worse.
“That’s when I discovered narcissism, narcissistic abuse, gaslighting, and trauma bonds. From that framework, everything started to make sense. My own experiences made sense, and so did what my clients were dealing with at the time. Ever since then, I’ve fully specialized in narcissistic abuse, relational trauma, and complex trauma, helping people make sense of these chaotic relationships.”
Standard Techniques and Advice Don’t Typically Work on Narcissists
“Wow,” I said. “Thank you, Chelsey, for sharing that. And from the bottom of my heart, I acknowledge what you experienced, and I really give you so much credit for using your superpower of being open for the benefit of all of us. It’s so hard to hear that you went through that, and I know a lot of other people are struggling with that as well.
“I have so many questions here because you just shared an absolute goldmine for all of us. One that comes to mind, and something I’ve learned from you, is that the standard techniques on these narcissists don’t work.
“For example, Brian Tracy is a very successful author. He’s written more than seventy books and he’s a great guy. He shared a suggested healing technique to use for healing with people who have hurt you where you tell them that you forgive them. So, I followed that technique with my father, and he proceeded to verbally abuse me. I realized it did not work and there was no opening there for healing at all. I’m curious how we can proceed when these typical techniques don’t work.”
“Yeah, that breaks my heart to hear,” Chelsey said, “because a lot of times that’s the kind of advice we initially hear with communication strategies and relationship advice, like share your feelings and tell them how you feel. And that doesn’t work because you’re not dealing with a healthy, rational person.
“I think the first thing to know is that we often positively project onto the narcissist. We assume they are like we are. They think like we do. They want the same things we want. They’re motivated by the same things we are. They don’t want a chaotic relationship. Of course they want peace in their life. They don’t want things like this. They’re not trying to purposely manipulate me and exploit me. They just don’t understand. We’re just having a miscommunication. We have different love languages, attachment styles, all the things.
“And that’s what keeps us spinning for so long, because there’s no limit to the amount of information you can Google these days. You can ask ChatGPT anything. You’re going down these rabbit holes and you’re constantly trying to make sense of something that’s never going to make sense until you recognize the type of person you’re dealing with.
“A huge thing to understand about narcissists is that they’re fundamentally disagreeable. And I don’t just mean that in a flippant way, like they’re kind of difficult. I mean, as a personality construct, which I can break down, they are disagreeable.
“So first of all, what does it mean to be agreeable? As most narcissistic abuse survivors are, we don’t see any reason for deception in social relationships. We believe in having open, honest, frank, sincere communication. We don’t really believe in bragging. If anything, we tend to underplay what we do because we don’t want to make anybody else feel bad.
“If you’re an agreeable person, you really care about what somebody else is going through. You’re moved by seeing somebody upset or seeing somebody cry, or even seeing something in a movie. You feel that. So you can have sympathy and empathy for other people. You default to being collaborative. You want to be cooperative. You want harmony in relationships, and you’re willing to oftentimes even sacrifice your needs, or what you want, for the greater good, for the good of the relationship, the good of the system. If you’re in a workplace, whatever it may be.
“Narcissists are fundamentally the opposite of that. So all narcissists are disagreeable, meaning they don’t value being humble. They actually will brag, and that is their preference. That’s their default. So they’re not trying to hold back and downplay what they do. They’re going to overinflate what they do.
“They believe that a certain amount of deception is necessary in social relationships, and that also comes because they see the world and other people as potentially harmful, devious, and dangerous. Their view of the world isn’t that most people mean well. It’s that most people are out to get me. That’s how a narcissist views the world.
“They’re not greatly moved by human suffering. They’re not very sympathetic or empathetic. They are more likely to bully or intimidate to get their way. So they’re not thinking, how can I collaborate? I don’t want to be unreasonable. I want to be fair. They’re not thinking any of those things. They’re thinking, what do I want and how do I get it?
“And so I think even just knowing fundamentally that narcissists are disagreeable is a really foundational lesson, so that we know you’re not dealing with somebody who’s looking at the world like you are.”
“Yes,” I said. “That makes a lot of sense. Fundamentally disagreeable, unable to be humble, and naturally very combative.”
“Naturally antagonistic,” Chelsey said. “That’s a word that comes up a lot. Antagonism is even this broader word that narcissism falls under. But if you just think of the interactions that we have with narcissists, one of the most common things we hear is just how difficult it is. Everything is difficult. Everything is more challenging than it needs to be.
“Simple things like coordinating schedules, picking up the kids, doing life, getting milk from the store, just normal everyday things, or even a normal conversation like, what time are we leaving for this event, can become an argument. And this keeps people so confused and so overwhelmed.
“And again, you can’t imagine somebody wants to live like that. But narcissists are also fine with chaos. They actually benefit from having chaotic relationships because it makes them feel powerful, special, and entitled. They like knowing they can have such an influence over you, that they can have such control over your emotions.
“To have chaos going on means they often have gossip that they can talk about. So they can triangulate people with, did you hear so-and-so is doing this? And again, that makes them feel special and important, to have things to gossip about. So in so many ways, they are living life in a very different way than you are.”
Do We Attract Narcissists, or Is It Bad Luck?
“One question I hear asked a lot,” I said, “is, do we attract these narcissists to us because of the unhealed aspects of our own psyche and souls? Or is it more just bad luck because there are so many out there?”
“There are a lot out there,” Chelsey said. “No, you don’t attract them. I think it’s really important that we know upfront that narcissists will exploit anyone. So it’s not that you’re attracting them to you.
“I think the more important question is, how do we get stuck? Some of us are more likely to get stuck in narcissistic relationships because narcissists are going to try to exploit anyone. So it’s not like something that you’re doing that has caused you to be in this relationship.
“It’s not your fault how somebody else acts. How somebody else treats you is never your fault. It’s always on the narcissist. So I’m always going to put blame where blame should be, which is narcissists. Being narcissists is their problem, not yours.
“But just in my own healing journey and working with so many clients, I think we can benefit from being curious about, why did I think I didn’t deserve decent treatment? Or why do I have such a hard time setting boundaries? What do I need to heal that makes me think I deserve this kind of treatment, or that I’m not worth being with somebody who would treat me better? Why do I tolerate this kind of behavior? Why am I normalizing it?”
“Wow,” I said.
“I think those questions can be really helpful,” Chelsey said.
Losing Hope: The Rock Bottom Moment With Chelsey’s Dad
“This is absolute gold,” I said. “I still have so many questions. Just quickly to backtrack, you mentioned your dad being very inconsistent, the broken promises, and obviously also the abuse, which is unthinkable. Did you have a particular rock bottom moment where you truly felt devastated to your core? Or is it more just the accumulation of many, many things over time?”
“It’s interesting,” Chelsey said. “Because rock bottom moments, a lot of times they’re not necessarily the big things. It’s like the last thing on the shelf that makes the shelf break in narcissistic relationships. They’re a collection of betrayals.
“I mean, the whole relationship essentially is a betrayal because they aren’t who they say they are, and they’re not who they pretend to be. So certainly, in all my narcissistic relationships, there’s a collection of betrayals that kind of goes on this psychological shelf because we don’t know what to do with it. We don’t know how to make sense of it. We don’t know what to think of it yet.
“So we’re just putting all these betrayals on this psychological shelf, like, that didn’t make me feel good. That wasn’t okay. But I don’t know what to do with it, and I don’t know how to process it or how to heal from it yet.
“So it was certainly betrayals over time. I think one particular thing, especially with my dad, really stands out.
“When my mom had gone to the hospital, she had some heart issues. This was when I was a kid and I was with my grandparents. He had called and said how he was sorry for things and that he was going to be different, change, be more involved, and things were going to be better.
“I must’ve been like eight or nine, and I knew how important that moment was. I was really close to my mom. I was homeschooled. She was my teacher, and she was in my homeschool group and my sports. I had a very full life, but my mom was my rock, especially growing up. So I was very emotionally distraught at that point.
“So for him to make a promise in that moment, it was a really emotional time. And I knew that if this didn’t change, if he didn’t mean it this time, then I didn’t know if I could go back. I didn’t know if I could try to trust again or have hope again.
“And literally within a couple months, it was back to the same cold, distant, controlling, critical behavior. So I think after that point, something in me kind of broke, in that I stopped having the ability to have hope.
“I was angry for a lot of years, honestly. And then I think I shifted to, this is where my perfectionistic qualities come in, I’m just going to be so perfect that you can’t tell me I’m wrong.
“A lot of his criticisms were like, oh, if you would’ve done this, or you could have listened to me, or setting up these scenarios where he wanted me to fail so that he could come in and save me.
“So in my kid mind, it’s like, OK, well if I just do everything perfectly, you can’t criticize me, therefore you can’t hurt me.
“And then of course, I’ve had to work on that throughout my life. But I think that was probably the moment where things changed, because after that point I was like, if you’re going to lie after something so significant happened, then that’s rock bottom for me. I can’t hope in that anymore.”
Dealing with People Don’t Get It and Dish Out Bad Advice
“Yes,” I said. “And I give you so much credit for being so self-aware and understanding what it did and does to you internally. That’s part of the healing journey so many people around the world are on when dealing with narcissists.
“There’s a lot of people who just don’t get it. They’ll dish out advice like, don’t take it personally, or just forgive them, or let it go, or come on, they’re your parents, or it’s family, or it’s a lifelong friend. How do you deal with people who just flat out don’t get it? It’s so frustrating.”
“Yeah, it is,” Chelsey said. “I take a breath even as you say that, because it is. And I certainly run into those people.
“Honestly, I feel very fortunate to be in the space that I’m in, because a lot of times the people I’m talking to do get it. Other professionals, or clients I’m working with, they’re coming because they want to get it, or they’re seeking understanding, or they already get it and just want to go deeper.
“But certainly I run into people who don’t get it. So the first thing, if they’re in my world, somebody I might know, I think it’s important we know who we can and can’t talk to about certain things.
“And it’s OK that you don’t open up your whole life story to everybody. If I talk about narcissism and someone says, well, I think everybody’s just a little narcissistic, or some people are just selfish, it’s so much more than that.
“So I might try initially to explain it, but I’m consciously not going to take responsibility for whether they get it or don’t.
“I think sometimes, especially early on in our healing, we really want other people to get it because we’re still trying to get it ourselves. Maybe we feel guilty for setting boundaries or for seeing somebody we love as narcissistic. So it really bothers us if somebody doesn’t understand, because we’re still coming to terms with it internally.
“But over time, and as you heal, you get more comfortable with the people who just aren’t going to get it. I can talk to them about hobbies or other interests, but I’m not going to open up certain parts of my life to them.
“And I think it’s important for people to know that’s OK. Not everybody has to know everything about your story.”
“That’s helpful for me,” I said. “I’m an open book, so I’m learning to be more careful about who I share with and who I don’t.”
No Contact, Low Contact, and Self-Trust
“Do you still have any contact with your father?” I asked. “And do you recommend that people cut out narcissists completely, or do you have other thoughts on that?”
“I don’t,” Chelsey said. “And it wasn’t really a choice. He was more the neglectful narcissistic type, and he hasn’t contacted me in years.
“But I don’t necessarily recommend or not recommend. I encourage people to think about what’s going to be most authentic and healthiest for them.
“My goal when working with clients and survivors isn’t to tell them what to do, but to help them build self-trust so they know what to do in each situation. There’s no hard and fast right or wrong.
“Ideally, if you don’t have to deal with a narcissist again, that’s great. But for many reasons, you may not be able to, or may not fully want to.
“You might enjoy certain aspects of the relationship if you can keep distance or limit contact, depending on who the narcissist is in your life.
“The question I encourage people to reflect on is, can I be healthy and stay in contact with this person? And if you fundamentally cannot function or show up in other relationships the way you want to while they’re in your life, then it’s time to consider disengaging, limiting contact, or going no contact.
“So it’s really about what’s most authentic for you, and what allows you to be the healthiest version of yourself.”
“That’s excellent and very helpful,” I said.
Your Turning Point Into Therapy and Authorship
“So you dealt with a narcissistic father growing up,” I said, “and you also had relationships with grandiose and vulnerable narcissists, which is incredibly difficult. I’m sorry you had to go through that. I’m curious what the turning point was for you to become a psychotherapist and bestselling author, and do the work you do today.”
“Yeah, it was definitely a process and a journey,” Chelsey said. “I’ve specialized in narcissistic abuse for a long time. Early in my career, I was also a registered play therapist, so I did a lot of work with kids and families.
“During some of the heaviest years, I was working a lot with kids and families and a few people with relationship issues. That helped because personally I was dealing with such heavy stuff.
“I don’t know that I could have been in those relationships and doing what I do now. I’m very fortunate to have a wonderful marriage with someone who is not narcissistic at all and is very kind. This really helps, and I had to do my own healing to get there.
“It evolved over time. I had to figure out what was going on in my relationships. When I finally ended that last narcissistic relationship, I realized I would sacrifice my whole life for someone if I didn’t stop looking at potential instead of reality.
“That was a big turning point. I had to look at my patterns, how I got there, how to make different choices, and how to value myself more.
“Through my own healing work, I learned about narcissism and narcissistic abuse. Coincidentally, that’s what I was helping my clients with as well.
“So out of desperation for myself and to help my clients, I made the shift. As I specialized in it and began promoting that work, more people reached out, and it evolved naturally.”
“Wow,” I said. “That’s incredible.”
The Value of Therapy and Trauma-Informed Healing
“Speaking of therapy,” I said, “I’ll be open and say I engaged in psychotherapy for two years while living overseas, and it was life-changing. I’m curious about your thoughts on the value of therapy and any other resources you recommend.”
“I’m in therapy as well,” Chelsey said. “I walk the talk.
“People often come to therapy thinking something is wrong with them. That was my mindset too.
“They think therapy will cure them, tell them what’s wrong, or just give them coping strategies. And while coping strategies help, therapy can do so much more.
“With a good, trauma-informed therapist, therapy can heal wounded parts of you.
“In my work, especially with childhood trauma or betrayal trauma from relationships or workplaces, therapy becomes a place to talk about things you don’t talk about anywhere else.
“These are heavy things. Many clients say they don’t want to burden their friends or feel like they’ve burned them out.
“So therapy becomes a safe container, a space just for you.
“Trauma-informed therapy helps put your symptoms into perspective. It’s not you, it’s what happened to you.
“Older models focused on symptoms and diagnoses and then applied CBT or DBT to fix them. Trauma-informed therapy asks, what happened to you? That framing helps people tremendously.
“Many clients downplay or dismiss their trauma as a coping mechanism. But when you do that, you see symptoms out of context and wonder why you’re anxious, depressed, ruminating, or repeating patterns.
“Therapy helps you see that you’ve been through significant things. Not to stay stuck there, but to give yourself grace, understanding, and compassion.
“And lastly, the most important thing therapy provides is relational experiences that change you.
“In therapy, someone responds to you the way a healthy person should. They validate you. They say, that was hard, that wasn’t OK, I’m sorry you went through that.
“That’s why the therapeutic relationship is the most powerful part of therapy. Research shows it matters more than the modality.
“You get to experience a relationship where someone cares about you and shows you what it’s like to be cared for. That’s incredibly powerful.”
“Very powerful,” I said. “And to everyone reading this, please know that seeking therapy is more than OK. Asking for help is a sign of strength and it will help you in your journey.”
Coaches vs. Therapists and the Importance of Fit
“This question came up for me,” I said. “We’re both active on LinkedIn, and there are great therapists and great coaches out there. Not every coach I come across has the depth and background that you do. You walk the talk. You’re a psychotherapist. I’m curious if coaches without that depth or training may not be as effective as someone deeply trained in approaches like EMDR or CBT.”
“Yeah, it really comes down to the person,” Chelsey said. “It’s hard to say. Some coaches are honestly more skilled in this area than therapists. I didn’t learn what I know now in grad school. Maybe it’s different today, but I had one class on diagnosis and that was it.
“We didn’t talk about different types of narcissists, gaslighting, or trauma bonds. You might hear about PTSD, but not complex trauma or betrayal trauma. I learned all of that after grad school through research, certifications, and personal experience.
“So it really comes down to the person. Even in therapy, the most significant healing factor is the therapeutic relationship.
“I always encourage people to ask questions. Do you have personal experience with this? How did you specialize in this area? Do you work with narcissistic relationships? Are you trauma-informed, and what does that mean to you?
“And most importantly, trust your gut. Listen to your body. If something feels off, even if they’re saying the right things, keep moving. It comes down to trusting yourself and asking yourself if you feel safe with this person. Do you feel like you could open up to this person? Does your body trust that person or do you get that feeling like something just isn’t right here? Do you feel really safe with them, feeling relaxed and calm? These are important things to consider.”
How Narcissists Are Created — and Whether Society Can Prevent It
“That makes a lot of sense,” I said. “That hits on it, and I like how you also pointed out that some coaches are indeed quite excellent. It really depends on the person, like you said, the vibe. What questions should people be asking to understand someone’s expertise and make sure there’s a fit? And I’m curious, how do narcissists become this way, and is there anything we can do on a societal level to stop creating so many narcissists?”
“I love this question, and I hear it all the time because everybody wants to know how narcissists are created,” Chelsey said. “I think the biggest reason people ask is because we want to understand it. We think, if I understand it, then maybe there’s a path to fix it or change it, or maybe the relationship could improve. Maybe if it was a bad childhood and they get help for that trauma, then things would change. Or maybe if they felt insignificant growing up and I showed them how much I care, the relationship would get better.
“So often, we can’t wrap our minds around someone being so antagonistic and difficult, and we think that if we understood why they are the way they are, then maybe things could change. That’s not the case with narcissists. So first, I want to get this myth out of the way: the myth that trauma causes narcissism.
“It does not. That is a myth. Because if trauma caused narcissism, then all of us who have childhood trauma would be narcissists, and there would be far more of them. What’s much more likely to happen when someone has traumatic experiences is that they become an anxious adult who struggles with boundaries, overgives, and sacrifices themselves.
“The tricky thing about how narcissists develop is that we can look backward and say, OK, these things probably contributed. But we can’t look forward and predict who will become a narcissist. When we look back at someone who clearly meets criteria — validation-seeking, exploitative, entitled, grandiose — what we often see genetically is a difficult temperament. We’re all born with different temperaments.
“Some people are naturally easygoing. Even as kids, you can see it. Some are more agreeable, some are happier, some are more giving. Others have a more difficult temperament. They’re harder to soothe, more emotionally dysregulated, and need more redirection to share and consider how others feel.
“When we look back on narcissism, we often see that difficult temperament combined with an environment that overindulges money, status, appearance, prestige, and how things look, and underindulges empathy, self-reflection, awareness, and meaningful relationships. Some narcissists do have trauma in their past, and I don’t want to discount that at all. But most people with trauma don’t go on to become narcissists.
“So it’s a complicated topic. It’s ongoing research. It’s like asking, what made you who you are today? It’s never one thing. It’s multiple things interacting together. The same is true with narcissists. And there’s also how the person responds to what happens to them. One person might go through a situation and think, I’m not good enough, and develop anxiety and low self-esteem. A narcissistic person might go through the same situation and overinflate, developing a grandiose sense of self to cope. So personality choices and meaning-making matter too.”
“Thank you for clarifying that misconception,” I said. “Because I hear that a lot. What I’m hearing is that trauma can be part of the story, but it’s not a simple one-to-one correlation.”
“I wouldn’t even say trauma causes it,” Chelsey said. “Trauma can be part of a narcissist’s history. I know that’s a nuanced difference, but it’s important. If we believe that myth, then we believe that addressing trauma will address narcissism, and it doesn’t.
“Even if trauma is part of a narcissist’s past, and even if they process it, that doesn’t change the fact that they’re a narcissist. Personality, once it’s set, is quite stable. Addressing trauma might increase self-awareness or heal some wounds, but it doesn’t remove entitlement or antagonism. That’s their default.
“As easy as it is for you to be kind and empathetic — you don’t have to think about it — that’s how easy it is for a narcissist to be exploitative and entitled. Asking a narcissist not to be antagonistic is like asking you to stop being empathetic. You’d be shutting off a part of your personality. That puts into perspective how difficult it is, and why we can’t assume healing their past will change their narcissism.”
Gaslighting and Holding Onto Reality
“That makes sense,” I said. “Another big topic tied to all of this is gaslighting. A lot of people struggle with it. I’ve struggled with it myself. When someone denies your experience, denies reality, rewrites the story, it’s incredibly hard. How do you find the confidence and awareness to not doubt yourself when a narcissist is constantly trying to rewrite reality?”
“When you’re in narcissistic relationships, you’re being gaslighted all the time,” Chelsey said. “These relationships are inherently full of betrayals. It’s one big gaslight, because they’re constantly acting like what’s happening isn’t happening and want you to agree with that. You’re living in a crazy-making vortex.
“So I teach an acronym called DLA: Document, Label, Affirm. It’s a grounding tool to help you remember what’s true. Documenting doesn’t mean writing everything down. It can be as simple as marking good days and bad days on a calendar. Smiley faces for good days, sad faces for bad days that can include criticism, contempt, manipulation. That alone helps validate your reality.
“Sometimes we think, maybe it wasn’t that bad, maybe it was a long time ago. Then you look at your calendar and realize, oh, they lied last week, or this betrayal happened two days ago. Time gets distorted in narcissistic relationships. Things feel good for a moment and you think, maybe it’s better, and then you see the pattern again.
“You can also write down highlights of conversations. What was said, what was agreed to. Narcissists often come back and say, I never said that, we never talked about that. Having even bullet points helps anchor you.
“Labeling means naming the manipulation. Instead of defending or explaining, you notice: there’s the gaslighting, there’s the criticism, there’s the triangulation. That distance matters.
“And affirm means reminding yourself why you’re doing what you’re doing. For example, people often stop telling narcissists about events until the last minute because narcissists consistently sabotage them. The narcissist will say, you’re selfish, you’re irresponsible. If you don’t know why you changed your behavior, you start gaslighting yourself. Affirming means reminding yourself: I’m doing this because of patterns in the relationship, not because something is wrong with me.”
“DLA,” I said. “That’s extremely helpful.”
Types of Narcissists and Patterns to Watch For
“You’ve talked about antagonism, lack of empathy, and many other traits,” I said. “Are there other major characteristics you’d add?”
“There are different types of narcissists, and that’s important,” Chelsey pointed out. We often think of narcissists as over-the-top, extroverted, charming — that’s the grandiose narcissist, and they’re easier to spot. Vulnerable narcissists look very different. They may appear depressed, withdrawn, self-deprecating. Therapists sometimes even treat them for depression initially.
“I encourage people to pay attention to how they feel in their body around someone. If you feel constantly pulled to fix, rescue, give resources, and leave feeling sorry for them, that can signal a vulnerable narcissist. They manipulate through pity and sympathy.
“There are also neglectful narcissists. They have all the traits, but they treat you like a ghost. You exist when they want something and don’t exist when they don’t. There are self-righteous narcissists, rigid and perfectionistic, who get supply from appearing flawless. And malignant narcissists, who combine narcissism with psychopathy and sadism. They’re the most dangerous.
“Narcissism comes in different forms. They don’t all look the same.”
Narcissism in the Workplace and Feeling Trapped
“There’s a staggering amount of narcissism in the workplace,” I said. “Leaders, managers, colleagues…it can be incredibly destructive. What advice do you have for someone who’s stuck, scared, and doesn’t know what to do?”
“Education and awareness are the first steps,” Chelsey said. “You have to know who you’re dealing with. Until you recognize narcissistic patterns and see them for who they really are, you’ll keep trying to make sense of them through your own lens, and that keeps you stuck.
“Using tools like DLA helps ground you. These relationships leave you confused and chaotic. Awareness lifts self-blame and helps you start making sense of what’s happening. Then you can find support — ideally with someone who understands narcissistic abuse — and go from there.”
“Wow,” I said. “What I’m hearing is that people aren’t alone.”
“They’re not,” Chelsey said. “Based on NIH data, Narcissistic Personality Disorder has about a 6% lifetime prevalence. That’s roughly 20 million narcissists in the U.S. If each negatively affects just five people, that’s nearly 100 million narcissistic abuse survivors. This is happening at epidemic levels.”
Forgiveness, Acceptance, and Letting Go
“What’s your take on forgiveness?” I asked.
“I think it’s more about acceptance and indifference,” Chelsey said. “If you start with forgiveness, you often force yourself past things that need to be processed. We need to acknowledge that it wasn’t OK first.
“A huge part of forgiveness is forgiving ourselves. People blame themselves for not seeing the signs. Self-forgiveness comes before anything else.”
“I’m working on a book where I share the severe narcissistic abuse I endured and how I healed from it,” I said. “And I’m featuring other people’s stories in it as well. Would you be OK with me sharing your story as a case study?”
“Absolutely,” Chelsey said. “That sounds like a powerful book.”
“Do you feel you’ve forgiven your father,” I asked, “or is it more a neutral acceptance?”
“It’s acceptance and indifference,” Chelsey said. “I believe people will ultimately be held accountable for how they live. I don’t feel it’s my job to hold that. I accept who he is, and honestly, I feel sorry for him for creating that kind of life.”
“Thank you so much,” I said. “This will help a lot of people.”
“My pleasure,” Chelsey said.
A Brief Note on Why This Conversation Is So Meaningful to Me
This discussion with Chelsey was particularly meaningful for me because it highlights exactly the narcissistic abuse that I endured as well. For the longest time I had no idea what it was or what I was dealing with, and all the typical techniques and advice didn’t work, even from credible experts. I was constantly manipulated and blatantly gaslighted, and even in my darkest moments, the narcissist I endured continued hurting me. I didn’t truly uncover how deep the chronic and complex trauma went until I was thirty years old (I’m currently thirty-six years old at the time of this blog post being published).
This isn’t easy to share, but I hope that in sharing stories like Chelsey’s and mine, we can help people figure out much sooner what they’re actually dealing with.
Chelsey Brooke Cole is a psychotherapist and bestselling author specializing in narcissistic abuse and complex trauma. She wrote and published the book If Only I’d Known: How to Outsmart Narcissists, set Guilt-Free Boundaries, and Create Unshakeable Self-Worth. Check out her website to learn more about her and her work and be sure to follow her inspiring posts on LinkedIn.
Leave a Reply