I had the pleasure of having a heart-to-heart chat with Nick Jonsson. Nick Jonsson is an author, having written a very well-received and best selling book called Executive Loneliness: The 5 Pathways to Overcoming Isolation, Stress, Anxiety & Depression in the Modern Business World. He is also a speaker, having spoken around the world, and he’s a co-founder and managing director of EGN (Executives’ Global Network), Singapore and Indonesia. He’s making an incredible impact in the world.
We had an incredible discussion revolving around mental health in the workplace and in the executive sphere.
Connected Through Speaker Colleague Andrew Bryant
I first came across Nick through our mutual colleague, Andrew Bryant. Andrew is an incredible self-leadership expert. He’s also a professional speaker and an executive coach. I was on a video call with Andrew, and I was telling him about all the things I’m doing in mental health as a professional speaker.
“Jeff, you need to connect with Nick Jonsson,” Andrew said to me.
“And here we are, Nick,” I said to Nick, beginning our chat. “So happy to be talking with you here today.”
“Yes, thank you so much for inviting me,” Nick said. “And it’s great that Andrew indeed linked us up. I had the pleasure to work with Andrew quite closely the last five to six years, here at the EGN in Singapore. What we do at EGN is we are connecting senior executives and business owners in confidential peer groups. Andrew has been a great supporter of that, and he used to actually facilitate one of our top leaders’ groups by himself. On top of that, he’s been a coach and mentor, in addition to being a speaker at some of our high-level events.”
“That’s fantastic to hear,” I said. “He’s very good at those things. And I had a similar experience with him, as well as him being both a colleague and a mentor. I also really liked his genuine nature – he’s someone who’s really making an impact in the world as well. So, I’m very glad he connected us. And I see the resonance here for sure.”
“I’m looking forward to seeing what we can work on together moving forward,” Nick said to me. “The space of self-improvement and self-development has basically escalated and gone to the next level in the last few years, because before at least we were surrounding ourselves with colleagues and peers in the workplace. Now, we have been working from home and in some countries, including where I am in Singapore, there is still only 50% of the staff allowed back into offices there. So, people are still working, and many are still isolated at home.”
Having Fun, Setting KPIs, and Maintaining a Connected Team
“Yes, that’s a very big challenge,” I said. “Indeed, with many being isolated. I’m curious about your position as a co-founder and managing director. You’ve won an Entrepreneurship Award in 2021 in Singapore, which is awesome. How do you manage the loneliness that can occur from this isolation of working from home? We’ve had COVID now for more than two years. How do you manage that? How do you deal with that?”
“Well, in my company, in EGN, we have thirty full time staff now and sixteen freelancers, and everyone is working from home,” Nick said. “That was already the case before COVID. So, we were already working remotely. We need to do a lot of things, Jeff, to engage our teams, for them to stay close with us. Tomorrow night, for example, we are going out to dinner with the team. So, we will be five people per table for the team dinner together to have some fun here in Singapore.
“But also, on a day-to-day basis, we have set up clear KPIs, daily KPIs, weekly KPIs, monthly targets, all linked to incentives for the team. We have gamification elements to this. That way people feel that we are all in this together: we are close together, we are joking, we are sharing, and we are celebrating the small wins together. And I think that is so important. It was important before and escalated to the next level now with us all working remotely.
Leading by Example Starts with Vulnerability From the Top
“That’s excellent,” I said. “You mentioned the gamification and you mentioned creating that fun feeling of being together. I’m curious, how do you handle it when one of your colleagues might be having not only a really bad day, but they’re struggling with something deeper? This is happening in the business world, with these deeper root causes and these deeper challenges. How do you deal with someone in a situation like that when you’re inviting them out? You’re including them in the culture, you’re having them be more involved, and yet they’re struggling with those deeper challenges. How do you deal with that and try to get them a little bit more involved or to open up?”
“It has to start at the top, Jeff,” Nick said. “Everything here we’re talking about is vulnerability and you cannot expect the fresh graduate, the new recruit, or the middle manager to be vulnerable in opening up about their struggles and challenges unless you have been vulnerable first. So that is really what I do. I’m trying to be a vulnerable leader – I’m sharing if I’m having a bad day or if I’m having a tough time. I’m very clear about that.
“And vice versa. We want to have open, transparent relationships. It’s based on trust. Because people are working at home there’s no need perhaps to go down and see your doctor to get a medical certificate that you need stay for home for two days from work when you’re already working from home. So, there’s a give and take where more trust is needed all around and more vulnerability is needed.
“This has to start from the top: we have to lead by example and check in with each other. Of course, it helps if you’re in the same city. So many of our staff are based here in Singapore like me. Sometimes I catch up even for lunch or coffee, such as on a weekday, but if they want to come and see me for coffee on a Sunday morning, I’m happy to do so as well. It is more challenging, of course, for staff we have overseas. We have staff in Vietnam, and we also have staff in Indonesia. But I’m making an effort to go over to Indonesia and to connect with the team, for one on ones, but also for some team building lunches and dinners. Since we don’t have the office environment together, we have to find other ways to connect.”
Authentic Leadership: Many Will Resonate, and Some Won’t (How to Deal with Critics)
“That makes a lot of sense,” I said. “I like your approach there. And you’ve definitely put a lot of thought into this. That’s not something you hear every day in terms of a leader like yourself, a CEO, an influencer, being willing to be vulnerable. I’ll say this very quickly, I recently put out a post on LinkedIn where I was extremely vulnerable. I shared that I’ve been insecure, and I’m deeply insecure. And I’ve been that way because of various critics and haters. People said they really appreciated the vulnerability.
“I wanted to just quickly ask you something before we transition into a bit more of your story. As we talk more about mental health, there are a lot of people who appreciate it and who resonate with what we are doing, Nick. You and I are putting ourselves out there, admitting those insecurities and being open about our challenges. And yet there are some people who are just not for us and who just don’t resonate. We’re not their cup of tea. Andrew Bryant says, I’m not for everyone, but who is? I’m curious, how do you deal with that, where you have the vulnerability, and there’s some who resonate, but then there are some people who really don’t like it. They might disconnect, they might go away, they might criticize, they might hate. A lot of people are dealing with hate these days. How do you deal with that yourself?”
“I haven’t seen it so much, Jeff,” Nick said. “I would say probably 99.8% of all people have been very open, welcoming, and supportive. I have seen one or two people – we have 600+ members in Singapore – I can remember two people who said it wasn’t for them. One actually said, great topic, but I’m not so interested in this. I got it all in order and I’ve got other things to prioritize. Another person did indeed say, Yeah, I want to terminate my membership, because this is getting too much in the mental health space. I was joining your organization because I thought it was more about top leadership and less mental health. But that’s very, very rare, Jeff, as most people are really seeing it as supportive. The way I put it is that if you’re not suffering by yourself, at least join these conversations, perhaps for your colleagues or your friends or your family members. You never know who’s suffering in isolation. This is what I call in my book, smiling depression, in the sense that you never know who it is walking around and having a hard time. So, for business leaders who are doing well, it’s fine they are great, but what about the people around them?”
“I’m glad you shared that, Nick, with mentioning the 99.8% who resonate,” I said. “And that’s very good to hear that you are having those kinds of people gravitate towards you. Kudos to you for being able to have the insights and the leadership to pull those people towards you. In my experience, a lot of people resonate, yes…and, let’s say, 10% do not. I’m very happy to hear that you are having those right kinds of people gravitate towards you. That’s what it’s all about. I would say, in my experience, that as you keep putting yourself out there, you’ll encounter more and more haters, and more critics. It’s just a matter of staying connected to your core and realizing that there are a lot of people who value it even when you get, like you said, an occasional person who either has something else going on – it’s not their priority already – or they just don’t resonate.”
“You’re spot on, Jeff,” Nick said to me. “My channel has mainly been with the members of EGN here, but also it’s been through LinkedIn where there are senior executives. I haven’t done that TEDx, for example, like yourself, when you start exposing yourself to a wide audience. Perhaps at that stage, I will see other feedback as well. To look at my book, the title is Executive Loneliness. The people who look up this kind of book will be quite interested in the topic, and therefore perhaps I haven’t been sort of criticized…but perhaps it’s a good heads up, Jeff, that I need to be ready for this. Because as the topic is spreading, and I’m on more and more podcasts in the U.S. now, about once a week with the podcasts, more and more people are interested and open to having these conversations. So, it’s probably around the corner that some critics will come as well.”
Nick Jonsson Sharing His Struggles and Powerful Story
“Absolutely,” I said. “You hit the nail on the head there and who is better equipped than you to help those people. You have the tools, the insights, and the skills. With your book Executive Loneliness, I’d like to encourage everyone reading the blog post right now to check out this book by Nick Jonsson, Executive Loneliness, as I highly recommend it. It’s a huge value add and there are excellent insights on several levels. And it really can help you, whether you’re an executive or at any other level of your career, or whether you’re just struggling in life, there are going to be some insights in there that will help you. I really wanted to give a shout out for that book, because that’s exactly the kind of book the world needs. And I’m saying that sincerely, because this topic of mental health and of dealing with loneliness is so, so important, especially in today’s times.”
“Thanks for that, Jeff,” Nick said. “I just had a look at your TEDx talk here before, and we have a lot of things in common with what we’re talking about. You’re talking about how miserable people are when you see them driving to work, and so on. It’s really true. We need to step up in life and stop being so miserable. Instead, let’s look at what we are grateful for in life. What is it that is great? I have a personal program myself, and I’ve been working on this, Jeff. It’s from me hitting rock bottom myself, and only from there on did I manage thoughts to appreciate the beautiful things in life.”
“Yes, that’s a good insight as well,” I said. “I can tell that you are putting a lot of thought into this. And you’re showing up in that way that is really helping people. On that note, I would like to transition into the next segment here talking about mental health. This is one of the big reasons why we’ve connected and why we resonate with one another…we have several things to touch on here. We have some really good avenues to approach this discussion. And Nick Jonsson here, he has some of the best insights I’ve seen on this topic.
“I’d like to start out, Nick, by asking you to share some of your own story, as far as dealing with the loneliness, with the anxiety, and with the depression. I would love for you to share it and go as deep as you would like to go.”
“Sure, Jeff, and just like you, I was carefully considering which university to go to,” Nick said. “I ended up going to Australia, as far away as I could from Sweden, and I wanted to learn English. And that’s where I found my little home in a small university there. That was the beginning of my international career. After that, I’ve been in various general manager positions for twelve to fifteen years. And I felt lonely quite a lot of the time. As the old saying goes, it’s lonely at the top. I certainly feel it. Because if you’re lonely at the top in the company when you’re working in the west, imagine when you are stationed in Bangkok, or in Jakarta, or in Ho Chi Minh City, where you might not even speak the local language. You don’t know what people are talking about behind your back. They are different cultures and they cannot understand you.
“In that sense, it’s very difficult for you to be vulnerable, because perhaps they don’t understand and it’s difficult to connect with people. In that sense, I was very lonely in my roles. I didn’t know how to deal with it and I didn’t have a good platform to discuss my challenges. My way to deal with it, Jeff, was to basically go to the bar after work and drink some beers. While that worked in the short term, the next morning I felt bad about it. Then the downward spiral started. That’s a quick summary of more than ten years of working under stress and extreme hours. Yes, exercising was one thing, but when I didn’t have time for that it tended to be too often I went for a drink instead.”
“Yes, that’s very good that you shared how you are coping with that by going for a drink,” I said, “because a lot of people are doing that. And they don’t necessarily talk about it. Let’s talk a bit more about how you were dealing with all the stress by drinking. You were sinking lower and lower, and you fell into that depression. Did you have a point where you thought, OK, I’m really going to take my own life? Or was there always sort of an awareness that you wouldn’t do it? Did you get that low where you were ready to do it, and it was a miracle that that you didn’t?”
“I came pretty close to that point, Jeff,” Nick said. “In 2018, I had gone down since 2016. I had resigned from a job because I didn’t feel connected with the team. I had moved country again. I had gone through a divorce, which meant my son was living with my ex-wife back in Sweden while I was still in Asia. I wasn’t really sure where was home. I was basically just jumping from one job to another. I had ruined all my finances, I had started to gain weight, and lost everything. So that was the sate I was in, and I managed to then move to Singapore with a hope of getting better.
“I wanted to get better. I can remember back in 2018, my body was breaking down, but I was too scared even to go to the doctor to see the blood results. So, I took the ferry across to Indonesia to get the blood results, and it was terrible. The liver, the kidney, the heart rate, and everything else was so bad. The doctor didn’t know where to start when they saw the results. And of course, that made me even more worried. I wasn’t suicidal, Jeff, but I was sure that I was going to drink myself to death or take medication to death. This was to the point where I signed up for life insurance. I wrote my will, my testament, an email to my ex-wife…I even created an email for my son, who was seven, eight years old at the time, and I sent him all the documents. I sent the details to my parents, and I said, give this to my son when he’s older if I’m gone.
“I cleaned up everything around me because I just didn’t think I could go on any longer. My left foot was so swollen at this time that I couldn’t put on a shoe. It was only later on when I spoke to therapists, I found out that that was a psychosomatic illness. Basically, I had so much anxiety and stress inside me that it was bubbling up my foot. My skin was terrible as well, from the drinking and all the lack of proper nutrition. So, you can call it a slow, gradual suicide, Jeff. That was my way of slowly fading away.”
“I’m very glad that you are sharing those details in terms of the vulnerability of the physical challenges that you mentioned, the psychosomatic effects, and how this was affecting you in multiple areas of your life,” I said. “So, readers of this blog post, please see here as Nick is showing you that there are many factors that can go into this. And that as you’re going down deeper and deeper into those struggles, you’re going to have a lot of effects that may be happening from various parts of your life. It’s good to be aware of this and to continue healing by being open, seeking help, and making meaningful changes.”
Bouncing Back from Rock Bottom and Many Struggles
“I’d like to go to the next step and the next stage of your story and this process,” I said. “Now, today, you’re crushing it and you’re making a huge impact. How did you transition out from the struggles and from the rock bottom? You had the physical challenges, you had the mental challenges you mentioned, you were writing something for your son…how did you transition from that to climbing back up that ladder and recovering? What advice would you give to someone who is at rock bottom and who is struggling?”
“Well, let’s talk through those,” Nick said to me caringly. “It didn’t happen overnight. It was many steps. The first step at that time was I met a woman who was divorced and was to become my new wife. Let’s go back to when I was lying there in May 2018, in Singapore in the bed, and when I felt bad and I felt that life was over. It was just after I had written my will and testament. I thought, well, I have nothing to lose now. I decided to tell her – I just told her how I felt inside. She was quite shocked to hear what I said to her. She decided to then support me and she gave me the backing to go and see a doctor to talk about my problems, and so on.
“I also realized I had to address the alcohol at that time, which had become an addiction for me. I needed to remove that. She supported me with that, and we went to see a friend who had problems with alcohol before. This person connected me with an anonymous support group. And I joined some meetings there. At the same time, I was getting more and more sick. I was even actually hospitalized at one stage, and I needed to get medication to be able to break from the alcohol. Because otherwise I would probably have died of the shakes and everything. But once I had the medication and so on, I managed to break from the alcohol.
“I got to three days sobriety then in May 2018. I just kept coming back to these support group meetings and I was there sharing my story. And for the first time in my life, I felt I was not alone. I could hear and feel immediately other business leaders sharing their stories, and how they have struggles – talking about how they have struggled three months ago, three years ago, twenty years ago…there were people there willing to support and listen and hear me. It was the first time I felt in my life that I really could sit there and share about my struggle, and someone would listen and understand. I immediately started feeling better, Jeff, and instead of drinking, I started to go for walks and I started to attend one of these sessions every day. After two, three months, my life was looking so much better. But I was keeping this to this little circle of my new wife who I just got married to and this group. I didn’t tell my parents and I didn’t tell any one of my friends. They didn’t really know what was going on. I was feeling myself cut off from the world even though I was recovering myself.
“It was only about fourteen months later, when a very good friend and colleague of mine in Singapore died of suicide, that I got completely shocked. I then decided to tell the world about my recovery journey. That’s when you started to see me popping up on LinkedIn, and it went completely viral around the world when I shared how I felt. And that was the beginning of writing my book as well.”
Healing Through Talking Openly About Your Challenges
“You’ve definitely got the audience thinking here,” I said. “This is clearly the only kind of wisdom that comes from experience. You’ve not only put a lot of thought into this, but you are able to clearly articulate and communicate these thoughts in a way that really, really touches people’s hearts and souls. I’d like to touch on what you said in terms of talking about it – that is huge. First, like you said, you’ve walked us through climbing out of those pits and being able to have the guidance from your significant other, your girlfriend and then wife. And then of course, being able to talk about it in those groups and settings. And then from there, sharing it more with the world. My friends, we need to talk about this. I really want to emphasize this, because the whole challenge is that our society doesn’t want to talk about it. It’s very frustrating. And I’ll go beyond the word frustrating – it’s deadly because people will die, they’ll lose their lives because they felt like they could never talk about it. So, I just wanted to emphasize that you did a great job to share this and to talk about it.”
“Yeah, thanks, Jeff,” Nick said. “I actually cleared this with the brother of my friend who died of suicide. I cleared this with him and got his approval. He said, Nick, shout it out loud. So, that’s what I did. My book is dedicated to my friend Simon. And my foreword is written also about this. It was indeed a starting point, and we have to talk about it. It can be a matter of life and death here and that’s why we have to talk about these things…we have to feel comfortable talking about these things. My LinkedIn posts often go viral and I was on radio within twenty-four hours of sharing it online. Then, following that, I got a four-page feature – the biggest media exposure and feature in Singapore’s history related to mental health.
“I also managed to quickly get other senior leaders – most anonymously – sharing their stories. It created this whole storm of media exposure here in Singapore, which led to people starting to talk about it. This was in 2019. So, this was all before the pandemic, and then of course, during the pandemic, this escalated to the next level as more people have been suffering. I donate as much as I can, and still today I’m donating to a suicide hotline here in Singapore called SOS Samaritans. I set up a fund for this, and all the talks and everything I’ve done during this time has been donated to this as well. But, more importantly, the awareness that we have this 24/7 hotline that does exist. I’ve given this hotline number to so many people who have been worried about their children, or even their parents (the other way around sometimes), and partners calling in despair. There’s at least help there. And there are so many beautiful organizations out there who are encouraging people to talk about it.”
“Congratulations on the media exposure, very well deserved,” I said. “That exposure is very needed. We need to talk about this. Your story is incredible in the sense that it’s adding value, shattering stigma, and showing that there’s nothing to be ashamed of. When we talked a little bit earlier in this conversation about all those effects that were happening in your life: you had all those causes, and then you had all those effects in terms of the challenges and the struggles. These are things to not be ashamed of and these are things that happen to all of us. The fact that you were able to have the bravery and the courage to put this out there is adding value to our world very much. And we will continue to talk about this.”
Talk About Your Mental Health Challenges, and Talk About It Some More: Lead by Example
“I want to ask you something that is related to something we were chatting about offline previously,” I said. “I wanted to bring it up here for the blog post and for the video…there are a lot of executives – people in general, including executives – who have these mental health challenges, and cope in different ways. You mentioned alcohol as a coping mechanism. Also, the use of drugs. It really caught my attention because we’re on the theme of speaking openly about it: you mentioned these executives will often not talk about it. They might be doing cocaine, they might be doing some other illicit drugs, they might be addicted to alcohol, and they’re not really talking about it. That really caught my attention because I’m preaching to the world here, hey, there doesn’t have to be a stigma if we just all talk about it and we’re open about it.
“I’m curious what you are really seeing in the trenches, on the front lines, of these executives who are engaged in incredibly illicit and destructive behavior – behavior with drugs, gambling, and prostitutes, but they’re not really talking about it.”
“Yeah, absolutely,” Nick said. “I did a survey in 2019, asking senior executives in Singapore about these issues. And I did the same survey again in December 2020. One of the questions was, if you’re not feeling well, will you talk about your mental health issues with your company? 84% of the executives said that they will not talk to the company about it because they don’t want the HR to know and they don’t want the company to know. This is because maybe then if these CEOs and Managing Directors are showing weakness, then the company will perhaps not move them up for the next promotion, and the company will look for someone else for the job, so they will not talk about it. Another survey by a mental health foundation in the UK is showing that 75% of people also don’t seek help for it. This means we have 84% who are not talking about it and 75% who are not getting help for it. That means people are suffering in isolation. That is exactly what I see, especially at the top, Jeff, with the hierarchy. The higher you go, the less likely you are to ask for help.”
“We’re really diving into it here,” I said. “We’re diving into your experience, and we’re diving into the wisdom. I want to focus on this for a moment here. It is so true that it is lonely at the top, even though it doesn’t have to be. You shared a very powerful statistic that we need to shout out to the world. You mentioned 84% of executives feel like they cannot really share this with HR and with their company, which is actually the opposite of what I preach where I tell them to be open. Like you, I’ve connected with a lot of executives, a lot of CEOs, and some resonate…but there are some – and I’m going to be direct here out of pure love – some are just incredibly stubborn. They refuse to be open, they refuse to share it, they even, dare I say, refuse to change. I want to harp on this related to your powerful statistic and story, because I’m wondering how we can approach those executives who are struggling, who are maybe even causing, through their dysfunctional behavior, their colleagues to struggle, but they just refuse to talk about it. They won’t listen to Nick Jonsson, they won’t listen to Jeff Davis. How do we approach that? Because they are hurting people. They don’t mean to and they’re not evil, but it’s causing a lot of damage. How do we deal with people like that?”
“The only way is for people around them to be vulnerable with them,” Nick said, “because all these people are just so scared to open up. The people around them are also just like them. I can share an example with you, Jeff. I have a lady who is part of my book, who I interviewed. It’s a senior executive and managing director for a bank – a lady, a woman who is the managing director for a bank, which is quite rare, at least here in Asia. She had been suffering herself, as she had lost her confidence after cosmetic surgery in her face. That led her to pushing her husband away. And at work, as she said herself, she started becoming bitchy and she elbowed her way up. She performed well, she got all the promotions, she lived in an apartment, her kids had nannies, she had the car driver, everything you can dream of, but she wasn’t happy. When I interviewed her for my book, in the first interview, she shared what I just shared with you. A few days later, though, she sent me a message and asked if we could meet again. When we met again, she said, I want to be more open with you. And that’s when she started to cry. She said, Nick, I rehearsed my own suicide twice. I don’t know what I should do.
“That was the first time she had expressed this to anyone. Luckily, she was on the path of getting better. Just like me, she had just told another human being about her plans and how she was. Of course, I encouraged her to seek help and she then started talking to a therapist. Her therapist encouraged her to get her husband in and they had a conversation with him as well. They managed to solve it, and she is today completely recovered and feeling fantastic about it.
“My point here is that her story was anonymously inside my book. During the pandemic and the lockdowns, she ordered a copy of the book for all her team members and her boss. No one knew that it was her story in the book, but she asked everyone to read the book and then they would have an all-hands meeting to discuss it. And in that meeting, she declared, by the way, the woman you read about in the book working in the bank, that’s me. Everyone was completely shocked. Here’s this successful woman who’s been on the team and the boss for eight years, who’s been completely tough, showing everyone how great she is.
“Here’s this woman who just told us that she rehearsed her own suicide twice. That was a complete turnaround for the whole team. What happened after that, Jeff, was the whole company started to have an open-door policy. Everyone felt comfortable to talk about everything. Her relationship with her boss, a man at the top position in the bank, shifted. He even came to her and said, by the way, I also went through a challenging time a few years ago. So, that is what happens. It takes courage from one person in a team or company to open up in this kind of way and be vulnerable. And then the next one will come, and the next one, and the next one, and the next one. That’s what you do, Jeff, that’s what I do here. We are sharing stories, we are breaking down the stigma here. It doesn’t happen overnight. But the people you’re talking about who reject this message – maybe someone around them needs to be that carrier, someone who they love, like a friend or colleague or someone, who open up. Then they will also start to share their story. We all have struggles, the only difference is that some hide it.”
“Wow, you hit the nail on the head there, you really nailed it,” I said. “That was a homerun and you addressed it very well. That’s an incredible story, as far as the woman and featuring her in your book, and the courage she had to step forward. And then how she inspired her colleagues, this is what it’s all about. This kind of experience is what is going to shatter that reluctance of leaders to really share. That’s so, so important. As we continue addressing this, it’s really about having the courage to be vulnerable. You mentioned it could be one person. We were talking about that underworld of executives, and of businessmen and businesswomen, businesspeople who are truly struggling. Like you said, we’re all struggling. It’s just that not everyone shows it. The key is to have the courage to be vulnerable. And if you lead by example – something that you mentioned doing yourself, Nick – that’s going to create a ripple effect of hopefully helping more people.”
A Cascade Domino Effect of Vulnerability and Opening Up
“Yeah, absolutely, Jeff,” Nick said. “It happens in our community, it can happen in your family, in your company, and in other places. But it can also happen in your connection space. I’ve seen this – I have a LinkedIn account where I’m very vulnerable and you are as well. I have a Facebook page where I’m vulnerable. As I open up more and more, I see the next day or the next week, someone else is vulnerable. This business lady who I had never seen any vulnerability from before, was suddenly sharing that she had a very difficult day. She said, I had to take a half day off. Now I’m here at the spa, looking after myself.
“These kinds of posts keep popping up. After she did it once, you see all the people who are making wonderful comments: get well soon, so good of you to be taking care of yourself…this is spreading, Jeff. We just have to keep sharing, and keep sharing, and it will come eventually.”
“This is very refreshing,” I said. “To speak from my heart here: this is not only adding value to our audience here today…it’s also refreshing for me myself, because sometimes when I’m vulnerable and being fully myself, it causes some anxiety and uncertainty. You have people who judge and you have people who don’t resonate, especially on social media. That kind of goes away a bit when you can get that face-to-face interaction, although it’s still there, but it’s especially on social media. But I still do it, you still do it. Others are doing it. Like you mentioned, people that you wouldn’t even expect to do it are beginning to open up because of the value our openness adds, because of the way it helps people, and because of the way that it causes others to open up.
“A few years ago, I had a burnout. That was embarrassing. But I said, you know what, I’m not going to be ashamed about this – and I shared about this burnout experience on LinkedIn. That caused a little bit of anxiety because not everyone may resonate, not everyone may understand, and some people may judge, but we still have to be open. You do the same as well, openly sharing your story, and openly sharing the stories of others. We definitely need to keep doing this.”
“Yeah, I’m in here in Singapore in Asia, which is a more closed society than the west, so it’s even harder here for people to talk about it,” Nick said. “So, me as a westerner here need to lead by example and do it first…and only then do they dare to start opening up. I even actually received a thank you letter from the Mental Health Institute here in Singapore as well as from the government body here, for my mental health initiatives last year regarding all the work I’ve done in this space. They said, we need more people like you to spread this message and who dare to stand up and say that it’s okay to not be okay mentally at every time.”
Tony Hsieh’s Tragic Story of Dealing With Mental Health Challenges
“Wow, keep doing what you’re doing,” I said, “as this is very, very needed. I’d like to ask you another question now regarding something that we talked about for a little bit before we hit record, which you brought to my attention. Kudos to you for that. I would really like you to take the floor and to share more on this.
“This is regarding a very powerful and very successful man, who I’m going to speak well about here. He was a good man, and his name was Tony Hsieh. I’m familiar with his work and he’s done incredible things in the world. And you mentioned that he died by suicide, and I saw online he did have those mental health challenges. This really caught my attention. Not only did I not know about this, but this is an example of someone who has succeeded, and even wrote a book about happiness…and yet the demons, the struggles of the pandemic, they got to him. I’d love for you to share more about this, and I’d love to talk a little bit more about it, because that really, really stopped me in my tracks. My mouth hit the floor. I said, oh my god, we need to talk about this, because this is beyond tragic. And we need to prevent this from happening more in the future.”
“Yes, indeed,” Nick said. “Tony Hsieh, a former founder of Zappos. I knew him personally because I did some work with him back in 2013. I went over to Las Vegas and I joined his boot camp called Delivering Happiness. The company I worked for in Indonesia at the time was also in shoe fashion, so we did some work together. I was blessed to join his camp. I met with Tony myself, I’ve been to his home, and I had dinner with him and his team. And we had fantastic conversations. His book, Delivering Happiness, was all about the well-being of employees and the core values of the company. It’s about how you can have great relationships and be happy in your workplace.
“I never met anyone who didn’t love the developed company culture in the way that Tony did it. So, I was also completely shocked when, in November 2020, I heard about his passing. I immediately reached out to our common friends in Vegas. They told me that the lockdowns had hit him very hard, and he started to isolate himself. He obviously couldn’t go out and be around friends. People didn’t really know this, but he was an introvert. And by the way, I’m an introvert myself. What we introverts need to do, is we need to be very disciplined and schedule sessions when we do come out from our own space and meet other people. What I heard was Tony didn’t do that – he had isolated himself, drinking too much, doing too many drugs, and starting to play with fire and smoke. He died, indeed, in the end, of the fire in one of his villas, not in the downtown where he worked, but somewhere up in the mountains by himself.
“A very, very sad story of someone who had sold his company for $2 billion, someone who had written about happiness, someone who I looked up to, and someone who I thought was a role model for company culture and happiness. It was a big shock to me and to everyone who loved and knew Tony.”
“I have goosebumps right now,” I said. “This is exactly the kind of story that we need to share. It’s very tragic, and I send only love to Tony Hsieh and his family. He was a great gift to this world. He lived his purpose. And he also unfortunately had that that tragic ending. The more we can talk about these kinds of things, the more we can prevent it from happening and the more we can help people through their struggles. We need to be talking more about this.”
Rock Bottom, No Hope, and About to End Your Life: Powerful Advice from Nick
“I’d like to ask you as well,” I said, “about if someone is at a point where they’re about to end their lives. I know you touched on this earlier, when we were going into your story in terms of how you were at rock bottom, and then you came out of it. I’m curious, if you had two or three main things to say to someone who’s about to take their life, what would you say to them?”
“The first obvious thing is to talk to someone,” Nick said. “I always say, Jeff, that we need to take a step back. We should never go to bed with something that’s bothering us on our mind. We need to have those contacts in place where it doesn’t go that far. That’s where it should be first. In my recovery program we have to stay connected with people and we have to call, message, or in some way connect with three to five people a day. That is so important.
“So, when you have those negative feelings before you go to bed, clear it. Because if you clear it on a day-to-day basis, then your conscience will be clear. What I’m talking about here, Jeff, is making amends. If you sent an email to someone that wasn’t the right tone, if you snapped at someone, make that amends before you go to bed and clear it so that you have a clear conscience. Say that you’re sorry, say that you rushed the email and you didn’t mean it… make things right on a day-to-day basis. That is the first point.
“The second one is to pick up the phone or send a message to people, and to do so in a practical way. I have people who I can call if I’m feeling off. In my program, we have someone called a sponsor. This means that I have someone I can call if I feel that I don’t know how to handle the situation at hand. Or, if I just did something that isn’t good, I have a person I can call. We need to have these people nominated. You can set this up with your best friend. It can go both ways so that you have each other as sort of safety ambassadors for each other. Make an effort to create a gratitude list. Start each morning by writing down a few things you are grateful for. You can send it to your buddy, or in my case, I can send it to my sponsor. I do that every day: I write down a few things that I’m grateful for.”
“That works very well,” I said. “Clearly, you’ve put thought into this, and you’re seeing the effects of this both in yourself, and through this incredible network you created in a greater audience of the world. Those are very, very valuable tips, including the gratitude. I especially love how you said to not go to bed on those unresolved things, don’t fall asleep with that anxiety unresolved, or whatever it is – that was spot on there.
“I found in my experience, and others I’ve talked to as well as I’ve worked with various colleagues in doing what I do as an author and a speaker, that when they are more expressive in their communication, it’s worth it. When they choose to not sit on it, and instead to make that effort to resolve it, more often than not it will be well worth it. And even if it isn’t worth it, you can at least have the peace of mind to know that you did all you could.”
A Lot of the Time, The Problem Exists Mainly in Your Own Mind
“If you reach out to someone and you say, sorry – you tried to make amends and they don’t receive it well, Nick – what would you say is the best mindset to have in that case?” I asked.
“Just clean your side of the street,” Nick said. “That’s all you can do. And then you move on from there. As you rightly say, Jeff, sometimes they will not receive it well, and that’s okay. But often, you will be surprised to find out that they didn’t even worry about it. It was nothing for them, the problem was only in your mind, and you’ve been playing this in your head for a long time.
“In my recovery program, I actually went back to make amends for things that happened in my childhood. One thing that we did in my recovery program was to really do a moral inventory. In a spreadsheet, I wrote down every incident I could remember. This included things like when I was fired and terminated from a job, when I had a fight with my sister when I was younger, and so on. I wrote down all these incidents and talked through them. And then when it was okay, when I wouldn’t hurt the other person in doing so, I went back and made amends.
“In one instance, regarding something that happened seven years ago, I stormed off during dinner. My sister ordered a Coca-Cola for my son and because he was too young, I didn’t want him to have a soda. In my head, I that carried around this pain for years feeling that what happened was a breakdown in the relationship. And then when I came back to my sister to make amends for this, she couldn’t even remember the incident. Here I was walking around for years with pain regarding something that she had forgotten about right away.”
“That’s a great example of how we can make those problems in our own minds,” I said. “Case in point there, and I’m very glad you highlighted that. You’re doing a great job, Nick, of taking responsibility for your side of the given situation. Like you said, you can only clean your side of the street, and we only have control over so much. And that’s okay. That’s the way it’s supposed to be for our own lives. So, for the audience, reaching out, cleaning your side of the street, and saying what you need to say does not mean it will be received well.
“I’ve done contracting and consulting with companies. And there are a lot of unsafe people out there. There are a lot of great people in the world and there are also a lot of unsafe people. It’s a mixed bag. So, if you’re doing what Nick and I are suggesting, encouraging, and advocating for you to do, and it isn’t received well by the other side, remember that isn’t on you. With those challenges you have in your mind, it’s okay to talk about it. It’s okay to communicate it. Remember that you might be building it up in your mind more than it really is. And then, in some cases, it may also not always be received well by the other person. In this case, you have a wonderful sister and I’m glad to hear that that that went well.”
“Yeah, thanks,” Nick said. “And that’s why we call this mental health. We need to practice this. It’s like, with physical health, what do you do? Well, you go to the gym, you exercise, you work out for an hour a day. This is the same with mental health, and we need to practice this. We need to have and use these tools. We were not born with all these tools about cleaning your side of the street, about making amends. We’re dealing with people, we’re dealing with emotions, we’re dealing with cultural differences, and so many things that we need to practice with around mental health and learn from. And the best thing is to have these conversations the way that you and I have them, Jeff. It’s about being honest, being vulnerable, and talking about it.”
Parting Shots from CEO Nick Jonsson
“Yes, it’s an ongoing conversation,” I said. “It’s an ongoing practice. That is beautifully said. On that note, those are my questions here for you today, Nick. You have added a ton of value. This is a goldmine. We could talk about this for hours, for days, for weeks, for months, and for years. And we will because we are going to continue talking about it on our LinkedIn channels, in our speeches, in our books, and in our conversations. This is absolutely fantastic. Nick, any last words? Any parting shots for the audience?”
“Yeah, thank you so much, again, for inviting me, Jeff,” Nick said, “and for being a part of this important job we do to indeed get rid of the stigma surrounding mental health. And I just want to end on the last note that, again, if you have something on your mind, just ask someone, someone who is the right person to ask for help.”
“Yes,” I said. “My friends, thank you so much for reading this here today. I really appreciate it. I would love to know if you have any kind of insights, if you have any questions for us, or if you have any reaction. I’d love to know, what are your struggles and challenges with mental health? Please share in the comments. And finally, I’d like to once again encourage you to check out Nick Jonsson’s book Executive Loneliness: The 5 Pathways to Overcoming Isolation, Stress, Anxiety & Depression in the Modern Business World. Phenomenal book. Check it out, read it, and share it with others. We need to keep talking about this. We are chatting with a co-founder and managing director of EGN Singapore and Indonesia, and with that, we sign out.
Nick Jonsson is the author of Executive Loneliness: The 5 Pathways to Overcoming Isolation, Stress, Anxiety & Depression in the Modern Business World. He is also a speaker, having spoken around the world, and he’s a co-founder and managing director of EGN (Executives’ Global Network), Singapore and Indonesia. He won the Singapore Top 100 Entrepreneur award in 2021.
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