Jeff: Hey everybody. Jeff Davis here, and I’m here with Herbie Mack. It’s a great honor and pleasure. It’s gonna be a fantastic conversation today. We actually originally connected on LinkedIn and both supporting one another’s posts. And the efforts we’re doing, we’re both mental health advocates, we’re both active in the community. We also both do speaking, training, do lots of group work as well.
I was really excited to meet Herbie here down in Tampa Bay. I’m just loving it, and it was just a lot of serendipity that connected us. I reached out to him. Timing was great for both of us, and here we are. And I really am excited for you to hear his story, his insights, and all the value that he has to share with you today as we keep this very, very important conversation going as far as mental health.
Herbie, it’s so awesome to have you here today.
Herbie: Yep. Thanks for doing this, man. I’m so thankful to connect with you. As I said, behind the scenes, when it comes to seeing a male talk about mental health, it is so rare. I’m just grateful to see someone that’s brave enough to share their story, but not only sharing their story, but do the dirty work behind the scenes, nobody talks about, nobody celebrates, the studying to making sure they’re looking up, you know, evidence based stuff. Like, okay, this does work. Like, this works, the training and teaching others. I’m thankful for that, man. I’m thankful to meet you and and to connect with you on LinkedIn.
A Lot of People Want the Dream, But They Don’t Do the Work
Jeff: Likewise, likewise. And I actually love what you just said there as far as the dirty work and the thing that’s really powerful, and I know this is a fact because of all the people, and I say this completely respectfully, where I know like, look, we all have competing priorities. And at the same time, I’m also gonna be honest by saying, you know, a lot of people want the dream and they don’t do the work. So I really feel like you just hit home, you just hit the ball out of the park, you hit a home run, because a lot of people are not putting in that behind the scenes work to have that success they desire. It sounds like you agree.
Herbie: Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah. In the beginning I was just like, oh no, lemme share my story. And, you know, you can share your story in so many ways. And for myself, I was just like, man, what happen if I do the education part about it? Let me, let me get the certifications, let me study, let me, you know, go on Google Scholar and look at the evidence based stuff so I can understand when I do teach those that this works. This actually works.
I have this, this data to show that, hey, if you just do something simple as journaling. You do something simple as going outside and getting 15 minutes of sun just walking around the block, you know, just breaking up that pattern. And you, when you see it and you say it and it’s like, look, I have stuff to back me up to do that. So, yeah. I don’t want to nerd out, but like, I enjoy doing that. You know?
It’s just like, man, I want to, you know, get all the knowledge I can so I can make sure that when I’m out speaking or just have a casual conversation with someone, that I can just say, Hey, this actually works. You know, Hey, you know, if you just walk around the block or if you just do my favorite thing, grounding, you know, doing the breathing method that I just talked about, about the 4, 7, 8 and just slowing down the world that can change your whole mood.
Using Breathing Methods to Calm Yourself
Jeff: Yeah. And you have both the story and the insights, as you said, behind it. Tell me a little bit more about that breathing you were talking about here.
Herbie: Yeah, so for myself, I was struggling mentally. There were certain parts where I was just like, man, I was overwhelmed. And coloring was my thing. And you know, like I love, I sit down, I color. And that was only working for so long because my body was kind of used to it. Brain was like, oh, hey, we’re coloring again, something else. And I just looked up something else and it was a breathing method. 4, 7, 8. You inhale for four seconds, you hold it for seven, and then you exhale for eight seconds.
And it just, for that moment, whatever thoughts that was racing in my mind, it just slows it down. Like it’s no longer there or it’s not as, you know, annoying as it used to be or something that was like aggravating me. It’s like, okay, you know what, I’m bugging out on this, you know, I’m overthinking this. Let me do something else to help me out. Yeah. Just looking at other tools to put into toolboxes, I like to say. So just having that, like Batman.
Herbie Mack’s Very Powerful Story
Jeff: I love it. I absolutely love it. We’re already diving into these great insights here and I have so many more questions about that. With that said, I really would like to, let’s say, to ask you next, and it’s something that, you know, one of my many burning questions for you in anticipation for our discussion here today is your story. And this is where I have seen you sharing on LinkedIn and I was really inspired. I don’t see many people go as deep as you go. And I’m talking about any gender, male or female or any other gender that may someone be, I’m not referring to that. I’m referring to like, as a person. I see the depth and the authenticity.
And I’ll tell you one post that really touched my heart when you talked about overcoming trauma and overcoming a dependency on alcohol, and that is just so powerful that you shared. And it’s inspiring and it’s also very brave. And I just wanted to ask you more about your story. Just have you share that with us today.
Herbie: Well, thank you man. I appreciate it. I’m trying not to act like I’m on the stage, but I’m about to give it to like, my stage story. You know, I like to say my signature story is, it goes like this: Waking up to the sound of someone banging at my door. As I opened the door, I realized it’s my ex-girlfriend. Trying to figure out why she’s here. She’s like, Herbie, why do you look like that? Why do you smell like that? Hello? Are you gonna answer me? But the whole time I’m trying to decide if I should tell the truth, because every male told me I can’t be weak. I can’t be vulnerable, I have to man up. She must have known something was wrong, that she leans in. She says, “I love you, I’m here for you.”
So with that being said, I decided to tell the truth. A trigger warning. This is the third day in a row I attempted suicide, and honestly it would’ve been four for me if she didn’t come knocking instantly. She starts crying, she hands me her phone and tells me to call the suicide prevention lifeline number. So I did. As I’m on the phone, I’m speaking to the counselor. As I’m speaking to the counselor, she says, sir, on the scale of 1 to 10, how do you feel today? As I replied, a negative 10, and to be honest with you, this is the first time in my life I don’t trust myself by myself. So she recommended I check myself into the behavioral health center. So I did.
As I’m there I’m getting evaluated by a couple of nurses and one of the male nurses, I’ll never forget, say, so I’ve been doing this for years. I don’t know if you believe God or not, he’s gonna use you to share your story, to save other lives. Wow. I had no idea what he was talking about, to be honest. Just wanted my pillow, my blanket, and cry, because no one thinks about attempted suicide, let alone being in a place like that. So there, I finally have to see the psychiatrist who’s running the facility, and he just like glances at my file. And he’s like, Oh, you’re from the Bronx. So I know people from the Bronx have a low IQ and can’t really read or write that well.
Jeff: Wow.
Herbie: I just want to say when people throw labels at you tell them labels are made for jars, not people. To see him want to communicate with me nor care to, I went right back to that same male nurse and I asked him, Hey, is there anything that I can do that can empower my mental health? Because I don’t trust that guy. He’s like a used car salesman. He said, Yeah, try journaling. And when I was journaling, that’s when I discovered I was a functional alcoholic. Here I am being a functional alcoholic for over a decade trying to numb my pain instead of understanding my pain. And here I am dating someone else, hoping that they can teach me how to love myself. Sounds ridiculous every time I think about it.
But as I kept journaling, I realized one of the triggers of my depression was my parents for not teaching me how to love myself. And from there I was just at this peace. Man, I’m hurting, thankfully I’m still there for another day. A psychiatrist comes and another one. And she’s like, Hey, why are we not taking a prescription that we provided? You have bipolar one. And I was like, what? It’s like, it’s the first time someone told me this. And so she did her homework. She goes back and she speaks to the nurses and she looks at my file and seen that I didn’t get the proper test. So she gives me the test to see if I had bipolar one. It said, passed with flying colors.
She was like, you don’t have it, but I’m gonna release you today. At this time, I’m there for five days. Only wasn’t there for three. And once she released me, she was like, hurry, promise me you’re gonna see therapy. I wasn’t sure. No problem. Yeah, Jeff, I’m not gonna lie to you, I was broke.
So did what anybody else would do. Go to Google and typed in how to love yourself and I discovered positive affirmations. And since I was in dire need, I decided to put sticky notes everywhere, bedroom, car, and all that. Then I started speaking to myself in the mirror. You know, telling myself, I’m loved, I’m smart. I can change the world if I just believe. And, from there, some of my friends found out that I was having suicidal ideation and they wanted to cheer me up by taking me out drinking. And I discovered something called boundaries. I love you, but I can’t go out to drink with you. Because when I do, I turn into that Incredible Hulk and I can’t control that man. They didn’t get it, but they respect me. So they stayed their distance. So some of my buddies, you know, they were trying to cheer me up.
From there, me creating that boundary with them, I went back to journaling and realized that, you know, my parents were depressed for not teaching me how to love myself due to the fact that my sister died for brain cancer at the age of three. So they were depressed. And then I forgave myself for, you know, trying to damage my body, trying to end my life, and being a functional alcoholic because I was depressed. And that led to that ex-girlfriend becoming my wife. And now my wife, you know, now that’s my wife. And now she blessed me with two amazing kids. And I share this story because I personally went from hopelessness to happiness. And it’s just something that I hope to inspire others to believe in yourself. I mean, you’re at this rock bottom moment now, but you don’t have to stay there. With the hard work and dedication, you can find that place of happiness.
Jeff: Thank you for sharing that. Thank you. That’s an incredible story. And there’s a lot we can take from that. There’s a lot. One of the things of many is it sounds like you mentioned the hopelessness and not getting the coping or the fundamental skills from your parents to be able to love yourself. And it sounds like that played a big role in sinking into the depression.
Herbie: Yeah, it was something, at some point, like obviously like my parents was good, you know, that life-changing event, for anyone, would change your life. And when it comes to coping strategies, being in the Bronx, we didn’t talk about it that much. We didn’t really say anything about coping. Well, fortunately, one of my favorite coping strategies was basketball. So that was my way of coping when I was having a bad day or I was in a funk. I would just go out and not think about my problems and just have fun and react and, you know, just play basketball.
But yeah, to answer your question, yeah, they didn’t really teach me that. But being in that place, we had group sessions and we was talking about this and so I kind of got rid of it. But having that conversation with the male nurse, right? So he broke it down in the sense where I got it. Like, Hey, take a moment. You know, you listen to some music, listen to some Jay-Z, right? Do whatever you want. And that was like, so you’re saying I can do this, with music on and all that. Just having that icebreaker and it helped.
Jeff: Yes. That’s spot on. And another thing that I absorbed is you mentioned someone was checking on you, you said that you had attempted suicide three days in a row, and it would’ve been your fourth if not for the person who at that moment was your ex-girlfriend and then knocking on the door. So, would you say that there’s power in caring for others? There’s the point where you’re struggling and there’s also power in checking in on someone to help them.
The Importance of a Safe Space and Being Mindful of the Words You Use
Herbie: Yes. I’m gonna tell you something, no one believes me. I have no idea why she came to my house that day. She didn’t call me, she didn’t text me, anything. It was just like a random knock. It was meant to be. And I guess like, you know, the universe was like, Hey, we’re gonna send you some help, someone that you will listen to. And finding that, you know, when you have these conversations with people, and I don’t like to say you attempting suicide because that can be offensive to someone. Like, you know, like, oh man. But when I sit down like, Hey, you think about self-harm and then what? And then I would be like, self-harm. Then I would use the suicide word in it. I don’t go directly with it.
But even with her, she came in, she created a safe space for me. And the ironic part about it, she got that number like three days before she came to my house. Like, she never heard of it. Her job told her about it and she gave it to me. I was like, wow, that’s good. And, you know, I’m thankful for it.
Jeff: Wow. I’m absorbing. It’s, like you said, we also have to be very delicate because of everyone’s situation. So everyone has their unique situation, and I know that there’s great literature out there as well and case studies and examples about how we do need to approach each person, each individual further for their case. And it sounds like you’re really getting out there now, and this year you’ve been doing it for a while, which is great to really share your story and help other people, and to impact others.
Herbie: Yeah, yeah, yeah. I’ve been able to, blessed, blessed to have an opportunity to not only share my story, but, you know, do workshops, teach people, like, Hey, this is the language that we use. You know, we no longer use the term of this person committed suicide. We use the term of this person died by suicide.
Jeff: Exactly.
Herbie: And then, you know, really, they’re like, well, why, why, why? Like, well one, you want to, you know, give that person’s family a moment of grief. You want to, you know, treat them like a person. This is not a crime that you committed, this is something that they were hurting, the pain. So stop using that language. And then also, as you said, realizing that everyone is different. So if, you know, if I know, man, Jeff is having a mental health episode, I’m not gonna go to you and be like, man, you think about killing yourself? Because you may not be, that approach may not work for you. So I may sit down with you and say, Hey, you think about self-harm? And you’d be like, well, what do you mean by that? Well, are you thinking about suicide? Tone matters. Language matters too on how you approach that person.
So understanding that person and really, you know, matching their energy and like, okay, this person’s at a 10, so I’m not gonna be at a 10 with them, but I am gonna ask them at some point, are you thinking about suicide? Language matters. Like you said, tone matters. How we approach them.
Jeff: And you said you don’t like leading with attempted suicide.
Herbie: Yeah. Not right away. Unless I know, unless I have a suspicion, I don’t want to say no, but unless I have some suspicions of, self-harm, right? Like, oh man, if I see, you know, if I see a weapon or something like that, then I’m like, oh, okay, cool. Are you thinking about suicide? Because obviously if they have a weapon there, then I’m trying to be direct. Or if they have like a knife or something like that, then I’ll be more direct.
But if it’s just a moment of life is overwhelming to them, then I’m like, Hey, are you thinking about self-harm? If they’re like, “no, I’m not gonna think about self-harm.” And then I would, at some point, I ask them, are you thinking about suicide? I don’t lead off with it right away. But if I don’t know the person, I may lead off with it. But if I do know, I’m just like, Hey, do you think about self-harm? Or something like that. You know, just, depending on the situation.
The Incredible Power of Self-Talk and Self-Belief
Jeff: That makes a lot of sense, the self-harm is that perfect in-between phrase and word. I feel like we could keep talking about your story, being that we’re in this right now, we’re in this really lovely library, in this room. And being that we have, you know, other questions, we’d like to ask each other. I’ll say one more piece before we leave it is that, is if you could share one, from your whole story, one transformational moment. And I know there were a lot of complexities and a lot of factors, so I’m not oversimplifying here, I just mean that if you could share one kernel or one piece of transformation for the listener from your story, what would you share?
Herbie: Man, that is the toughest question I have I received so far. The one moment that I would share is me talking to myself in the mirror, the self-talk. Yes. Like, you know, now my wife, she played a factor into it, but she didn’t do the work. I still had to do the work. I still had to believe in myself. And me talking to her gave me that confidence to believe in myself. That confidence to say, I want to live.
Building up my confidence and being able to say, it’s okay not to be okay, but guess what, Herbie we’re here, let’s figure this out together. And, you know, she was there for a little bit, but it was mostly me doing the work and being okay, but giving myself grace and just the self-talk. I don’t think we do that enough, of like, looking in the mirror, not just washing our face and brushing our teeth, but just actually looking at you and just saying, I love myself. Like, yes, I may not be on a GQ magazine or I may not be, you know, in a swimsuit edition or whatever, but just really embracing you.
I think sometimes we compare ourselves to others. It’s easy to do that. But once I locked in and learned how to love myself, just looking at myself in the mirror and telling myself, I’m loved, I’m smart, I’m intelligent, I can change the world, if I just believe. Now look at it, I’m actually doing it.
Not Everyone Is Ready to Share Their Truth – and That’s OK
Jeff: Powerful, very powerful. Self-talk is something all of us can work on. So thank you for sharing that insight, Herbie. So, moving along here. With some other questions and piggybacking off of the incredible content we’ve already talked about. So, one thing that was just going through my mind is you and I are both mental health advocates, and there are others out there. And, at the same time, there really, generally speaking, aren’t that many of us. And it’s not like some club where anyone can speak up.
I truly believe from the core of my soul, we all can make an impact. We could all speak up. Whether you have a story or not, or, it doesn’t matter, we could all speak up. Why are there so few people, even now, even now, as we approach, we’re actually approaching the end of 2023. We’re almost in 2024, which is mind-blowing. Even now, some people say, oh, the conversation has come so far. I’m gonna share my honest opinion, it’s come a little bit of the way, it’s scratching the surface. We have so much farther to go as a society. Herbie, why are there so few people even now speaking up about this important topic?
Herbie: One, I’m not sure if everyone’s ready to share their truth. And, you know, you and I, are peeling back. It’s very challenging sharing your pain. Because you have your, you know, someone that’s gonna be the villain that you care about, right? Like, for my story, my parents may look like the villain. At that moment, they were going through a lot. I didn’t realize that, you know, when you’re a teenager, they don’t keep you in the loop of, “I’m struggling mentally”.
So for people who may wanna share their story, they may not be brave enough yet to be at peace with making said person the villain. You know, because it’s, you get feedback, you get backlash. I shared my story. The backlash of the text between my family was like, Hey, you’re putting your, you know, your mom down, putting your dad down. You’re doing all this negative stuff to them. And it’s like, no, that’s my truth. This is how I felt. This is what built up.
Jeff: It’s your experience.
Herbie: This is my experience, exactly. And I’m at peace with that. But behind the scenes, I made peace with, you know, them. Like, Hey, you know, I’m sharing this. If you’re not okay with it, it is what it is. And being comfortable with it. Just being able to share your story, it’s just powerful for anyone, they can share their, you know, mental health experience and challenges. But the backing part, I’m not sure everybody’s willing to do that, willing to take on that burden, because it’s a lot.
Being An Advocate Doesn’t Have to Mean Sharing Your Story (Sharing Resources)
Herbie: Or, and very similar to what you said, you don’t necessarily have to share your story. You can literally share some posts. Here it goes. You know, the famous 988, let share this on your feed. You know, share another resource or whatever. That goes a long way. You never have to share your story. That’s just you being an advocate right there. Just, Hey, I’m sharing this, I’m sharing this resource.
Jeff: Yeah. Love that. Did you hear that, everybody? You don’t have to share your story, you know, you can be an advocate by simply adding to the conversation in any way. Hey, there’s a lifeline. Hey, there’s a resource. Love that.
Herbie: Yeah. I had a gentleman I met a couple weeks ago at an event that I did, and he’s like, man, I wanna share my story just like how you did. But, you know, I’m not there mentally. I’m just not there. I’m not strong enough. And I’m like, dude, you’re working with this organization, you know, you’re doing this amazing work. That’s enough. You are running groups. That is enough. You don’t have to, you know, share every pain if you’re not, if you’re still healing, it’s okay. If you don’t feel like doing it, it’s okay. You’re doing enough, you’re sharing amazing resources.
The guy gave me probably 10 resources that day that I didn’t have. So I’m like, that’s enough. And that’s acceptable.
It’s a Lack of Care and a Lack of Willingness to Change – It’s Also a Lack of Empathy from Mental Health Being Invisible to Others
Jeff: Yes. Yes. And another thing coming to mind as we’re talking about this, while we’re on this topic, before we go into a couple others, is why do you think that, I know before we hit record on the camera, we’re talking about people don’t get it. And that actually really touched my heart. I remember we had this great conversation before we started talking here, sort of a prerecording conversation. And I really got passionate and I thought, oh, I really experienced that. And that’s been actually a pain point for me as well. You know, people misunderstanding us, where we truly are trying to help others.
And I’m gonna say it, and I say this completely respectfully and also from my truth. And, you know, you can also call it my opinion. No one has to agree with me. But would you say that the people not getting it comes from both a lack of care and a lack of willingness to change? Could those be underneath it?
Herbie: I would say I have to agree with you. Yeah. I would say, yeah. But also, you know, we talk about mental health. It’s not like you broke your leg. If you broke your leg, I can see it, you’re wearing a cast. Broken arm, I can see it, you’re wearing your cast. But, you know, when it comes to mental health, we can’t physically see it unless it’s something that’s shown. That’s why some people don’t get it. It’s like, oh, you’re making this up. We all have our own problems. It’s because they don’t see it in that way. Like, we all have our problems. They don’t have the empathy for it.
Like, oh, okay, Herbie’s having a bad day. And then you’re like, oh, it’s not a bad day. This guy missed work. He’s doing all of this. Something’s going on. Let me actually check in and create that space. It’s just one of those like, alright, well he’s having a bad day, we’re gonna keep it moving. I think it just has a lot to do with the not knowing. Where I’m from in the Bronx, we didn’t talk about mental health at all. You know, whatever happened in the house, stayed in the house. But now, really breaking that barrier and saying, Hey, it’s okay to seek help. It’s okay to go get a, I like to say a pro, get a, you know, a counselor, therapist, or even if you need someone to support you, like a life coach or something like that, that’s perfectly fine. Right? Or if you want to go to support groups, that’s perfectly fine. You can have that support system. So I think it’s just really breaking that barrier and showing others, look, this thing is serious.
Jeff: Yes. It’s real.
Herbie: It’s real. It’s something that’s serious. And I hate to bring this up, but I feel like COVID, for those who didn’t have empathy, when somebody talks about mental health, they got it. Oh, this is what it is. You are, you want to go outside, but you can’t, but you can’t do certain things because, you know, you’re on lockdown. And that’s how it is with someone mentally, like, man, I can’t be the best version of me because mentally my brain is on lockdown or mentally I’m having an episode that’s not allowing me to put my best foot forward.
Dealing With Judgment (Sharing to Help Others Who May Be Getting Judged)
Jeff: Yeah. That is spot on. We’re definitely on the same wavelength there, for sure. And one thing that’s coming to mind too, you know, as we’re fleshing out, like you said, these underlying reasons why not everyone gets it, and how we need people to understand that a broken mind is just as real as a broken leg. I’m also curious, dealing with judgment. You mentioned coming out with your story, and especially at the beginning. And it can happen at any point. And, you know, now you have this incredible momentum and I just love seeing your LinkedIn posts in my feed. You’re one of my favorite people to follow. I just love it. I so resonate. And you mentioned your family and also other people didn’t really understand you and, you know, weird accusations that don’t resonate with your truth. And let’s say it for what it is: judgment. And I experienced a lot of that on my journey.
And I’m not saying this to make it about my journey. I’m saying this to help others who are dealing with judgment, because judgment prevents people from living their purpose. So, to clarify, I’m laughing here, because talking about people not getting it, they’re like, Oh, Jeff, you’re so caught up in the criticism. I’m saying that I’m using it to also help people. So I’m curious, how could you help someone who, you know, they want to, you mentioned, you need courage to share your story. They want to come out and change the world. They want to impact lives and they want to be the fullest version of themselves, and yet they’re so fearful of their family and their friends and their work colleagues, and they’re getting judged. How would you help someone like that?
Herbie: I can, well, I can tell you what helped me is learning that somebody else’s story, I’m gonna be the villain, right? I’m not gonna be the hero of someone else’s story. There are people that I’m the hero in their story, and there’s people that I’m the villain. So therefore, I don’t worry about the judgment, right? Because in my story, my parents may come off as the villains and, you know, my family in particular was texting me like, dude, you making us look bad. Right? And I was okay with that. I was okay with that. I was just like, you know what, but my pain is going to help someone.
Jeff: Yes.
Herbie: So, if you feel that you’re the villain, that’s on you. If you wanna work on that, we can work on that from, from here on out. And that’s okay, if you wanna meet me where I’m at, and we work on it as a group project, I guess. But then also really just being…it is what it is. You know, I can’t change my past. Those are the experiences that I experienced, but I can change my future. And being able to say, you know what, it is what it is.
Jeff: Yeah.
Herbie: I’m not going to let this person judge me because their opinion doesn’t matter. It’s my opinion. I know that I’m doing the best that I can do and helping others. And if I have to be vulnerable and share my pain to help someone else, then I’ll help do that.
It’s Not Your Job to Correct Someone’s View of You (Muhammad Ali Set a Powerful Example)
Jeff: Let me ask you something, and it sounds like you’ve got it covered, and, you know, I’m gonna share this. There have been times in the past where it’s kept me up at night being the villain in someone else’s story. And they didn’t understand me. And, you know, they had their own point of view, which is their right. And we’re all entitled to our own perspective and opinions. That’s a human right, no matter who we are.
And I realized, you know, that I saw a powerful insight that was shared and someone said that, you don’t have anything to prove to anyone. And, you know, I realized I need to get more comfortable myself. And I’m being open here as well, where, okay, that person didn’t get it, but it’s also not my job to correct their view. And I still, oh wow. Wow! I feel like I just shared something important. And I still fall into that trap. I still fall into that trap of seeking to correct someone’s view.
I just engaged with a brutal guy, and you know what I learned from that? The only thing I learned from that was just don’t engage. You know?
Herbie: Yeah.
Jeff: So it sounds like you’re at peace with being the villain, it doesn’t eat at you, you’re saying?
Herbie: No, no. So I, I’m not gonna use a superhero analogy. But I am gonna use a superhero analogy. So, you know, Muhammad Ali. Muhammad Ali was one of my guys that I look up to. And I look up to him, right. Because in some people’s eyes he was a superhero and in some people’s eyes, he was a villain. Right? And he was okay with that. Especially when he said, I’m not going to war. I’m not going to Vietnam. In a lot of people’s eyes, he was a villain. And in some people’s eyes, he was a hero. Because he stood up for what he believed in. That’s how I was like, man, that’s the confidence I need to have.
And that’s how the mindset that, you know, reading his story, reading his books, and I’m like, oh, okay, I get it now. It doesn’t matter what anybody else says about me or thinks about me. It just matters how I feel about myself. And having that confidence, like, oh, well, I’m the bad guy of your story, I’m the bad guy. It’s okay. I’m not gonna try to win you over. You know what I mean? If I’m the good guy in your story, I’m the good guy. Cool. I know who I am at my core, being okay with that.
You Are Enough!
Jeff: Wow. Is there a belief? What would you say is the core belief underneath that? The belief, and I’m thinking along with you here, is you’re worthy, you’re fully worthy as a person. You’re enough, regardless of what that person, whether they think of you as the best thing since sliced bread, or whether they think of you as the worst thing ever. You are enough. I’m enough. You are worthy. And that’s the core belief you have in your heart and soul.
Herbie: Yeah. That conversation in the mirror helped me believe that I’m enough. Dude, very similar to you. I was up at night worried about what this person says, and I’m just like, why? Why? I am enough. I attempted to take my life and I’m here, I’m still here, so therefore I’m enough. I’m worthy. I proved that, you know, talking to myself in the mirror, that if I believe in myself that I am enough and that’s it.
Like, I’m just, don’t even worry about it. Sometimes, I used to, occasionally I’m like, oh, I worry what my wife thinks. But other than that, no. For the most part, I don’t care what Joe Shmoe thinks or what anybody in my family thinks. I’m enough. I just keep that momentum going. Horse with blinders.
What Herbie Would Share With Someone Who Is Completely Hopeless (We’ve All Been There)
Jeff: You know that so thoroughly through your heart and soul. Let me ask you, what would you share, what would you share with someone who, right now they came to you and they’re suicidal and they’re completely hopeless. What would you share with that person?
Herbie: I would share with them, man now you put me on the spot. I’ll share with them, 988, obviously. Give that to them.
Jeff: Resource.
Herbie: Resource. I’ll give them a resource, but I’ll actually have a conversation with them and let them know, look, you are worthy. Whatever experience or trauma that you’ve been through – that is just a chapter in your life. That’s not your book. So just let that moment be that moment. You have the ability to change the narrative of your book. And it’s not easy. It’s hard work, but your life is worth it.
Herbie’s Question For Jeff
Jeff: Love it. Love it. That’s similar to what I would share as well. So, let me ask you, we can go back and forth here, in our remaining time. This has been an incredible discussion. Hopefully this is the start of many conversations because there are so many directions we can go with this. I mean, even your first piece, we could talk about your story for hours. And I’m curious if you have a question you’d like to ask me as well while we’re here.
Herbie: Yes. What is the best advice that you received about your mental health?
Jeff: That’s a good question, wow. I like how we’re both asking ourselves great questions. What’s the best advice I’ve received from someone else about mental health? I would say that it’s a process and it’s a daily practice. And what I feel like is that with a lot of our society, and I’m speaking generally here, I’m not calling out anyone…we fall into the trap of thinking it’s a one and done. Like, okay, that’s done. Let’s, okay, tuck it away. All set. It’s not…it’s actually a daily practice.
And I’m an advocate myself and I’m also still caring for myself daily. And also recognizing when am I overwhelmed? What am I taking on too much? And stepping away, going for those walks in the sunshine, using those resources, calling friends and colleagues, and anything else. So I would say understanding that it’s a practice, it’s a process. It’s not about getting to the end destination. It’s more so about engaging in that process and making it a daily routine. And optimizing, monitoring, and enhancing your mental health as much as you can. That was really, really good insight from someone else.
Herbie: Great. Yeah. It’s a marathon, not a race. Something that you just have to just keep on doing every day. Well, not, I don’t even want to say that. It’s more of a lifestyle. You know, it’s like, oh, hey, every day I’m going to make sure I get some fresh air, I’m going to do, you know, journaling in some sort of way, or I’m going to, as you said, check in with my support team. Hey, you know, this and that. And I found it so beneficial to be direct with my support team. Like, Hey, you know, if this is a day where I need to vent, like, hey, I want to vent. No feedback, please. You know, I don’t want no advice, but then, oh, hey, I need some advice. And so on. So, yeah. Great answer. I love it.
Jeff: Yeah. And another thing I learned, from my own journey, from my own experience, and this ties to what I’m saying because it ties back to what we talked about, is that your self-worth is infinite. It does not depend on external circumstances. That was the one key insight I learned from my journey. And I’m sharing that because it came up into my mind, my heart, my soul, as you’re talking, where you’re talking about that core belief that you’re worthy, regardless of what someone says, how they perceive you, you’re still completely worthy. And knowing your self-worth is infinite, that’s the confidence it takes to be, like you mentioned the example of Muhammad Ali and others like him who are really putting themselves out there. I thought that was a great connection there between our own experiences.
Herbie: Yes. Yeah, that’s what helped me out. It’s just like really looking at that, you know, when he was growing up, it was such a difficult time, and I hate to use the word difficult, but it was, and he was still able to have that confidence and realize he was worthy. He spoke his greatness into existence. He did. And not only he spoke it into existence, he lived it. You know what I mean? So it’s just like, that’s what I wanted. And that’s why I was like, okay, well, in order to be great, I have to realize that I am worthy and I am great, no matter what. If I have a bad day or bad experiences, I like to call it, I’m still, the greatest of all times in my mind. Because I’m worthy. Because I went through hell and now, look at me now. I’m like, yo, this is just a little bump in the road.
Believe In Yourself
Jeff: I love that. I’m gonna take a risk here because I’m really interested in this. Do you, and, and again, if you don’t want to answer, you can also say like, I don’t want to, because I’m really going into our psyches and I view you as great too. I know we both like this content. So I’ll ask this: In the back of your mind, do you think of yourself as the greatest of all time? Or at least in that conversation?
Herbie: In my mind, I am.
Jeff: Love it. Love it.
Herbie Mack is an extremely powerful mental health advocate – one of the best of all-time. Check out his work on his website. Jeff Davis, like Herbie, is also a mental health advocate. Learn more about Jeff’s story on his about page. Feel free to share this conversation with anyone who would benefit from it.
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